Wednesday, July 11, 2007

Ranma vs Ryoga

Manga comparison since I prefer manga a lot more than I do the anime and they are much more even in the anime.

Skill - Ranma appears to be a lot more skilled than Ryoga. Example in skill difference Ryoga was fighting all out trying to kill (where as Ranma wasn't trying to kill) Ranma while Ranma was in his weaker, less skilled (as shown by Mousse battle mainly from lack of experience fighting as a girl) form and ignoring Ryoga in favor of arguing with Akane and Ryoga still didn't win.

Toughness - Ryoga is tougher than Ranma but not by an overly large degree. Ranma did take a massive punch by Ryoga into a mountain side causing the rocks to compress and has taken vacuum blades and still been able to fight.
Ranma and Ryoga toughness comparison done by obsidian fox on before site crash:

Toughness => Power => Equivalent Fight
1x => 1x => Soldier (3000W) vs. Soldier (3000W)
1.13x => 1.2x => Soldier (3000W) vs. Fit Male (2500 W)... it would hurt
1.3x => 1.5x => Soldier (3000W) vs. Avg. Male (2000W) (he could take a bunch of them)
1.5x => 2.0x => Soldier (3000W) vs. Unfit Male (1500W) (if he swings really hard, the soldier might even feel it.)
2x => 3x => Soldier (3000W) vs. debilitated old man who can barely walk up stairs (1000W). (Please go die somewhere else...)

So... if Ryouga is only 2x as tough as Ranma, he'd be able to ignore pretty much any blow that Ranma ever makes... even if Ranma made a lot of them. 2x is really the maximum one could place Ryouga's toughness over Ranma's. 1.5x is a truly plausible value for Ryouga's toughness boost. Much higher than 1.5, it wouldn't matter if Ranma threw 10 punches or 100. The most they'd ever do is cause light bruises.

However, on the other end, 1.3x toughness might be a little on the low-end for the boost, unless you consider toughness in other ways (e.g. extra endurance, pain resistance, etc.). With much lower toughness, Ryouga wouldn't be able to pretend those blows didn't hurt him.

Endurance - Ranma has shown to have more endurance (ability to keep going even though exhausted or hurt) than just about anyone in the manga (Toughness and endurance are not the same thing). Ranma was hurt by Mikado prior to fighting Ryoga and was capable of continuing. Ranma was capable of taking multiple ki blasts and keep going. Ranma starved himself for a week during the martial arts dining and was still capable of fighting.

Stamina - unable to determine though both have massive stamina. Both can fight for hours on end provided they don't use extremely draining techniques as seen during the rhythmic gymnastics training. Ryoga spend lots of time walking and Ranma swam the sea of Japan.

Intelligence - Ranma appears to be smarter than Ryoga and a lot less gullible. Ranma uses Ryoga's gullibility against him repeatedly.

Speed - Ranma is much faster than Ryoga.

Strength - Most people would expect me to say Ryoga and I will, Ryoga is stronger than female form Ranma. As for Ranma's male form it's unclear Ryoga could be stronger but it's also possible that Ranma is as strong or stronger.

We've never seen the full extent of either Ranma's or Ryoga's strength. Both are incredibly strong. Here are the arguments that I've heard people use to argue that Ryoga is stronger and my counters to them:

Argument: During Ranma's first fight with Ryoga someone said Ryoga is monstrously strong.
Reply: That was at a point in the manga that no one had seen what Ranma was capable of so their statement means nothing for determining their respective strengths. It does show that both Ranma and Ryoga are super humanly strong though.

Argument: Ryoga is stronger because he is able to wield an extremely heavy umbrella that Akane had trouble lifting.
Reply: The same umbrella Ranma's weaker girl form had no trouble lifting, swinging around with one hand, and jumping to a rooftop holding.

Argument: Ryoga accidentally destroys things with his strength therefore he must be stronger than Ranma who doesn't accidentally destroy things.
Reply: Ranma has accidentally destroyed things with his strength the boat that was going to be taken to China during volume 37 is one example. That doesn't prove that Ryoga is stronger than Ranma, it does show that Ryoga does not have as much control as Ranma does. People who are clearly much weaker than Ranma and Ryoga casually destroy property as well (Kuno with his sword, Akane when she is angry, and Shampoo just likes doing so as a show of strength).


Nec said...

In the ice skating arc.

Mikado kisses Ranma. Ranma smashes the ice in rage and makes a crack.

The same ice is completely destroyed by Ryoga's strength.

In the Strength noodles arc Ranma is unable to life the bell that falls on him and Shampoo. But Ryoga has been shown to lift icebergs that would weigh far more.

You give most of the abilities over to Ranma without even justifying them. Such as stamina. If there wasnt overwhelming evidence of Ryoga's toughness you would probably give that to Ranma also.

Botttom line is that this evaluation is heavily bias.

antimatterenergy said...

When Ryoga lifted the ice burgs, he did so while standing on Ranma's head. Ranma did not try overly hard to get out of the bell. The same ice that may have been already weakened by Ranma's punch since it was the very day before and the ice was not given that much time to refreeze. I stated it is possible that male Ranma is equally or even stronger, I did not say it was that way. Ranma's weaker female side was capable of lifting a multi-ton boulder many times larger than her into the Orachi's mouth. Ranma did manage to pick up most of a giant Buddha Statue and stuff it in a bag (umisenken arc).

I did not give Stamina to Ranma. I stated it as being unable to determine.

Nec said...

My mistake, meant Endurance.

Ryoga wandered for days before the shishihokodan match. Hes shown keeping himself up with a staff. But he than fires off several ultimate blasts.

This was the one that I meant you simply gave to Ranma. Without providing a counter argument, a very weak way to proceed.

Yes he did it on his head? And? He pulled them toward himself... He never lifted those huge chunks.

Though I was refering to the ice boulder he jumped up with.

You seem to have created some fairly weak excuses for Ryoga not being stronger. And have fallen back on that Ranma could be stronger. If we are going to use hypotheticals and ignore the most likely possibilties...

Personally Im always baffled why this ever comes up. Rumiko did everything buy bitch slap the reader and scream Ryoga is stronger!!!!!.

Besides that Ryoga has proven himself close to Ranma in a fight. Your anaylsis had Ryoga loosing out on nearly all the stats. How does he make up for it? By be .5 tougher?

antimatterenergy said...

I do not count endurance and stamina as the same thing. Endurance in my view is the ability to fight even though injured which Ranma does more than any character battle versus kodachi, mikado, Herb, etc...

Your also not taking into account that Ryoga and Ranma are fighting very different battles. Ryoga is fighting an offensive battle using techniques that can maim, seriously injure, and kill. Ranma is fighting a defensive battle which is significantly more difficult than an offensive battle (best defense is a strong offense). Ranma has been shown to be unwilling to use techniques that can cause serious harm which means he is limiting himself. If a bloodlusted person is fighting a non-bloodlusted person the only way the non-bloodlusted person can survive is by being significantly more skilled. Ranma has been shown to be skilled enough to ignore Ryoga in favor of arguing with Akane and still win.

You are also not taking into account that some of the fights Ranma was in his female form.

-Ranma's cursed form which is weaker than male form(this is shown in the manga)
-less skilled - since didn't have the body as long demonstrated in Mousse battle when Ranma was forced to alter tactics because of body difference),
-shorter reach
-less tough -Taro battle female Ranma afraid of rock Taro threw then turned male effortlessly shattered rock using arm that was injured meaning female Ranma is either physically less tough than male Ranma and/or Ranma is less confident in his female forms abilities and underestimates his female form (personally I think it is both Ranma's female form has thrown/broke rocks in that size range and should have been able to deal with it as a female but I also think she is less tough than male Ranma)

I am not arguing that Ranma is stronger than Ryoga. I am arguing that it is not as conclusive as people assume. I can show Ranma lifting/throwing massive things as well -casually kicked a multi-ton thing at Mousse, shoved a rock more than 10 times her size in the Orachi arc, yes underwater which would make it a bit lighter but much more difficult to maneuver and move around, managed to jump to a rooftop carrying a massive bag filled with the remains of a giant Buddha statue, etc...

antimatterenergy said...

In the anime it is different. Ryoga and Ranma are closer in skill. Definitely shown in the episode where Genma trains Ryoga.

Now if you want to argue that Ryoga has more endurance than Ranma fine show me storyarcs in which Ryoga is hurt and keeps fighting. I can show plenty in which Ranma does so. They are easy to find. Look at the battle on the ice. Ranma gets thrown into the wall gets up and keeps fighting even though bones make cracking sounds.

Do not argue that Ryoga was not trying to kill or seriously hurt Ranma because he was. The thrown bandana's could have seriously hurt Ranma. Also during the breaking point Ryoga thought it would kill Ranma if touched him and Ryoga really did think it would kill Ranma. The only times Ryoga was capable of winning decisively was wearing the calligraphy mark of the gods and the shishihadoken which temporarily gave Ryoga greater reach (distance), attack area (were large hard to dodge from up close), and speed (could be thrown as continuation of a punch).

Nec said...

Of course you can show plenty, Ranma is the main character. But you cant show any evidence that Ranma trumps Ryoga in that area.

You just assume because Ranma has shown he can keep going. That actually means its inconclusive.

I would say taking hundereds of punches from Ranma and still fighting is pretty injured. Or being smacked around by lime, and than doing a ki blast on the edge of death. I do beleive Ryoga has been the only character to almost die, and he fights on.

Now you show me examples of Ranma ignoring Ryoga to argue with Akane. They better be serious fights and not gag fights. Or I will pull up many examples of Ryoga pounding Ranma. (Either way this is a diversion, and moot).

Now heres the prob you give Endurance to Ranma becuase there are so many examples of him displaying great Endurance than what we've seen Ryoga do.

But you refuse to give strength to Ryoga even though we've seen him pull two massive chunks of ice to himself, a feat Ranma may be able to match, but we havnt seen so.

By your logic you must either give strength to Ryoga or admit that Ryoga may have Ranma beat in Endurance.

Finally what does Ryoga trying to kill Ranma have to do with anything? It seems to be a pointless attack on his character. And if I wanted I suppose I could throw out some weak excuses and slippery arguments, but this too is moot.

You have avoided the question though.

Ranma thinks of Ryoga as a rival. Rumiko created Ryoga as a rival. Most people who arnt die hard Ranma fans see Ryoga as a rival.

How can he be a rival if Ranma has him trumped in every aspect. Oh I forgot hes .5 tougher?

antimatterenergy said...

Rival for Akane or rival in battle? If your counting battle I'd argue that Happosai is more Ranma's rival since Ranma goes to greater lengths up to and including the use of magic (girl repellent), mind manipulation (suggestion incenses), and drugs (alcohol and chloroform) against Happosai. Ryoga is Ranma's only real rival for Akane's affections though since Akane doesn't notice Gosungunki and hates Kuno.

Ranma has a lot of rivals. Kuno was at first (until we found out how much better Ranma was), Mousse was for awhile, Cologne was for awhile, etc..

No Ryoga was not the only character that came close to death. Ranma several times for example to learn the body of ice he had to feel the coldness of the grave, Akane nearly died a couple times, Shinosuke nearly died, etc...

Mentioning Ryoga trying to kill Ranma was to expound on skill differential. It takes a lot more skill to defend yourself than it does to kill someone. It also takes more skill to not seriously injure your opponents than it does to seriously injure your opponents.

Ranma ignored Ryoga to argue with Akane a few times most notably the fight in which her hair was cut off, Ryoga was taking it very seriously using a ki powered belt and bandannas.

Being on the edge of death is beneficial for the ki blast since it's powered on the emotion of depression. Skirting the edge of death is at it's most powerful, not it's weakest and is in no way a measure of endurance since that is the means to get it most powerful.

I do not think there are any examples of Ryoga trumpeting Ranma that do not have Ranma in a weakened state, such as his cursed form, under the effects of the weakness moxibistion, while Ryoga was supernaturally powered -calligraphy of the gods, or the beginning of the ki blast arc. Even in his cursed form Ranma defeats Ryoga.

I will agree though it is possible that Ryoga may have more endurance than Ranma but seeing how Ryoga was never injured to the extent Ranma was it is unknown.

antimatterenergy said...

Thing is I count Ryoga to be Ranma's rival for Akane. She does go on two dates with him (three if you count at his house when Akari was there) and it makes Ranma very jealous (like when she kissed P-chan).

In fighting I do not count Ryoga to be Ranma's rival anymore than I do Kuno and Mousse (who also get temporary power-up and occasionally put up as good fights as Ryoga does). They are rivals but in fighting Happosai is much more so Ranma's rival than anyone else.

antimatterenergy said...

Who does Ranma fight with most?
answer: Happosai
Most trouble with?
answer: Happosai
Needs to use desperate measures with?
answer: Happosai
Causes Ranma the most problems not romantically?

Which is why I say at least in the manga Happosai not Ryoga is Ranma's primary rival.

In the manga, fighting wise Ryoga really does not give Ranma anymore trouble than other characters have and he has a lot of rivals.

btw :Does anyone know how to edit comments? I would've liked to have just added to my previous comment but really have no clue how to.

Nec said...

You can go ahead and not consider him a rival...

But Ranma himself considers him his rival.

Mark of the Gods Arc, out of his own mouth.

Happosai his rival? Happi can kick his ass any day of the week, he is in more of a teaching posistion. Each time he overcomes Happi its more of a lesson, Rivals should compete in martial arts. Happi is already worlds ahead of Ranma.

Rivals should be near in skill. It takes one hell of an ego to beleive that a 16 boy can compete with the skill of a hundered year old master.

I never had to prove Ryoga was better, simply almost as good. A challenge, a rival.

The breaking point arc, the shishihokodan. Even when Ranma learned his own ki blast, they are close battles.

Ranma says Ryoga is his only true rival. Rumiko has him as the only martial artist to officially challenge him multuiple times. The one who keeps coming back.

And if you ask any Ranma fan, whos Ranma's rival. 9/10 will say Ryoga.

Therefore I give Ranma speed and skill. Ryoga gets stength and endurance. The reason Ranma will almost always win, is because he is better at strategy. Thats how he beats Ryoga.

I dont know how much more obvious Rumiko could have made it, unless Ryoga had a theme song called rival when he enters.

One last note. I think your comparing apples and oranges with Ranma and Ryoga's near death experince. The reaction to the two are very different.

Nec said...

Another note Ryoga is in another league all together compared to Mousse and Kuno.

Rumiko made it clear that hes better than the two.

Ive also noted that hes the only rival who gets to beat Ranma up. It may be for comedic purposes. But in several arcs hes shown beating Ranma up off screen.

Most would write this up as comedy and probably rightfully so. But Mousse or Kuno dont drag Ranma off screen and beat him up.

Nec said...

Ughh one last edit. Dont use Akane beating Ranma up as a comparison to what Ryoga does off screen.

Akane isnt a rival and everyone knows Ranma is worlds beyond her.

antimatterenergy said...

Yes Ryoga is a rival but he is not the only one and IMO is not the main one except for in competition for Akane (other rivals for Akane Gosungunki, Kuno, and Shinosuke not as much).

Only one to challenge Ranma multiple times. No way. Mousse challenged him multiple times as well when Ranma was trapped in female form by Cologne's pressure point, when he kidnapped Akane at the circus, when Shampoo sabotaged Mousse using weapons that would backfire onto Mousse and during the time Mousse dated a statue and got stronger are the times I can think of off the top of my head. Kuno challenged Ranma first volume, time with the phoenix chick on his head, the time Kuno learned the watermelon cutting technique, and volume 36 with a real Katana. Principal Kuno did so at least five times as well (intro, time he tried to keep Ranma out by closing the gate, island with Hawaiian virus, time he tried to get Ranma to bow, and time he stole the test scores come to mind). I can go on.

The breaking point arc did not prove Ryoga was even nearly as good. Ranma thought just one poke would kill him meaning he was fighting massively on the defensive (handicapped) and he still did not attack weak points that could cause serious injury like the eyes, ears, and joints. He could not even let Ryoga poke him because he thought it would kill him. The shishihadoken once Ranma learned it, Ryoga was unable to beat Ranma even though Ryoga had more practice with it and feels depression stronger than Ranma has ever felt confidence. Really did not give as good a fight as Kuno did during the time he learned the watermelon cutting technique (scared Ranma bad enough to have a nightmare about Kuno raping her and having Kuno's kids).

Still near death and everyone reacts differently to it, was also not the not the only time Ranma has almost died a lot Saffron battle, cursed swimsuit was going to pull him to the bottom of the sea drowning him, Orachi nearly ate him, etc...

Ranma can compete with people much older than him as evidenced his father who created two schools of martial arts (umisenken and Yamasenken) and has decades more experience than him, constant fights with Happosai, gave Cologne the best fight she had in 50 years according to her, fighting with Happosai's friend Lucky (took both Happosai and Lucky out with a Hiryu Shoten Ha), etc...

Maybe 9 out of 10 would consider Ryoga to be the main rival. Doesn't mean anything. You know how much fanon there is in Ranma I've written multiple posts on fanon (i.e. what people believe and how the manga actually has it)

10 more Ranma fanon
fanon vs canon

Well there is maybe one scene that shows Ryoga lifting more than Ranma does there is absolute zero evidence Ryoga has more endurance. Toughness yes, endurance no.

Ryoga beating Ranma offscreen occurs how often? Once I believe. When Ranma was in weaker female form and feeling a bit guilty for messing with Ryoga (pretended to be Akane). No other time is it shown how much Ryoga was beaten up, Ranma could have left Ryoga lying unconscious.

BTW: I'm only counting manga not anime. Anime is different.

Nec said...

I would never count the Anime.

It also happened at the end of the Orochi Arc. And it happened in the mirror clone arc. He catches Ranma thinking he kissed a guy, Ranma leaves the fight beaten pretty bad. Forgot about the sister arc, thx for throwing that in. How many of these examples do I need?

I said hes the only one to officialy challenge him. Officially being the key word.

You still try and side step the biggest peice of evidence blowing your case apart.

Ranma said. "YOUR THE ONLY ONE I CONSIDER TO BE A RIVAL" Mark of the Gods Arc.

What more evidence do I need? If you wont listen to Ranma himself saying your wrong, It really is impossible to argue here.

Ryoga was just as handicaped in that fight. He thought one hit would kill Ranma, so he spent the whole time trying to get a clean poke in.

Just to make sure you cant ignore the biggest flaw in your argument.

Ranma himself disagrees with you. He says Ryoga is his only rival. His only rival.

Yes he can stand toe to toe with his father. But Happi is light years beyond Genma, if the scene where he uses his Ki to make himself bigger is any evidence. Happi considers Ranma a student. And Im not sure what Ranma thinks of Happi, but he never mentions him as a rival.

Oh and one more time so we dont lose the point.

Ranma disagrees with you.

Nec said...

One last added note.

Ranma getting beaten up off screen was simply something I noted. It should be taken with a grain of salt.

I just use it because he is the only one out of Mousse and Kuno who get to do this.

antimatterenergy said...

Only one to officially challenge Ranma? No. Kuno wrote more challenge letters than Ryoga did, so many that classmates even comment on it (vol 11 online scan Ranma and Kuno are going to duel! Again?!). Kidnapping Akane and saying I challenge you don't count as challenges anymore? since that is what Mousse did. Gosungunki even wrote at least two- one when he had the power armor and one in which he told Ranma to meet on top of Kuno's head. Happosai officially challenged Ranma as well (he quit mid-battle though to look at girls in locker room).

Your using the mirror clone arc as an example in that arc Ryoga hit's Ranma exactly one time, Ranma is not seen hurt at all instead argues with his clone.

Ryoga was no where near as handicapped since he could hit any time and anywhere and was on the offensive.

Truthfully, I'm not sure how, how much a rival Ryoga is has much to do with anything since it was a comparison between Ranma and Ryoga not a discussion on rivalry. Well it is true that Ranma calls Ryoga his rival, he does have other rivals and Ryoga does invoke the most emotion i.e. jealousy in Ranma.

Also you can consider someone less skilled than you as your rival for other reasons like tenacity or rival in love for example.

Well Ranma may say Ryoga is primary rival Takahashi the creator of Ranma said Happosai is Ranma's archival in the memorial book (called Art of Ranma 1/2 in English Release) lists Ryoga as sparring partner. Here is a link to that sells the book:

The art of Ranma 1/2

It is not online in english but if you can read German it can be found here Ranma art book in German on rippers anime

So who has supreme authority what Ranma says or what the creator of Ranma says?

Nec said...

Your looking at the wrong spot, Ryoga is shown looking all evil and angry and than it cuts to Ranma being beaten up. Clone arc.

The rival was called into question because you are determined to think that Ranma is just better in every aspect than Ryoga. Except .5 tougher.

I questioned how he can even be his true rival, if hes just plain out worse.

You denied that hes even his true rival, and the rest is history.

Kuno's letters are a running gag. Ryoga's arnt. Please dont tell me your gonna try and use Gos.

And stop trying to throw doubt on the use of rival by making it sound that Ryoga is a rival in love (he might be, but thats moot). Ranma is clearly refering to fighting abilities.

Well I cant read German... Dont you think the term arch rival is a tad odd of a phrase? Arch rival? Sounds like a mistranslation of Arch villan, which makes more sense. Either way, the word Arch makes it sound as if Happi is far above Ranma.

And since when is the rival archetype ever that much older. The rival Archetype is almost always the same age. The older martial artist gets to play the teacher archetype.

In the end you still prove my starting point.

Ranma thinks of him as a rival. His only true rival.

You yourself have proven that he is no more tenacious than the others.

So you must conclude that it is Ryoga's skill that makes him special. Or Id be happy to hear what you think makes him special.

So? What makes Ryoga special? That Ranma thinks of him as a true rival? You make him sound run of the mill when it comes to rivals?

Anwser: Hes almost as good as Ranma, and has him beat in some stats.

antimatterenergy said...

Arch rival would mean the biggest rival.

Saffron, Keema, Korma, Masala are listed as villains.

Mikado Sanzennin & Azusa Shiratori: listed as Enemies in battle

Mariko Konjo: listed as Embittered enemy

As for rivals not being older. I have read books that had older/more powerful rivals for example a fantasy book had a wizard hundreds of years older as the main rival. Another story had a god be the main rival of mortal. Look at greek mythology for example Satyrs (youthful folk deities with bestial features) and sileni (old drunken gods) were rivals.

What makes Ryoga special is his rivalry over Akane. The others are no where close. Since Ryoga is so much more a threat in that he gets rated higher.

He is basically run of the mill. He didn't beat Ranma more than the others, he didn't challenge him more, he didn't force Ranma to take desperate measures to win, etc.. I agree with Takahashi he is more a sparing partner than a rival. Ryoga is the one who seeks out new techniques and uses desperate measure against Ranma not Ranma.

Nec said...

Your serious?

Your saying what makes him special is because of Akane?

So when Ranma said your my only rival its because he had the best chance at scoring with his girl?

And it had nothing to do with his respect for Ryoga and his fighting ability.

Seems like a load of crap to me. Even in the end Ranma saying this line puts a huge problem in your theory.

Also your rival examples are incredibly weak. They dont look old, there immortals. Im just stating a basic and common held archtype. You really run around hard to try to avoid taking the commonly accepted path.

Last Note. She veiws him as a sparring partner? I mean Ryoga likes him no more than the other rivals. Why him as the sparring partner?

Oh I remember why, because they are close in ability.

Or is that because of Akane too? Is that how you pick a sparring partner, whoever has the best chance with your girl?

You do remember why I wanted to prove him a rival, to prove he isnt run of the mill. To prove hes close to Ranma in ability.

Why is he the sparring partner?

antimatterenergy said...

Takahashi listed these other characters like so:
Principal Kuno: sparing partner
Tatewaki Kuno: Frequent sparing partner
Mousse: sparing partner

The art book has a whole chart with commentary on how Ranma thinks of the following people, and/or why he was fighting them. It is right in the book drawn and written by the creator of Ranma. The person with the final say so. If you don't believe me you can go out and get the book (it is worth it great drawings all colored) -or learn to read German.

Ranma has shown respect for other peoples fighting ability for example when Kuno learned the watermelon cutting technique Ranma complimented him and he showed respect for Mousse by not throwing the fight (at least that is the reason Ranma claimed).

antimatterenergy said...

You have not proved he isn't run of the mill. Only thing you have is that Ranma one time called him his rival. Doesn't really mean all that much. Ranma has also called Ryoga his fiancee doesn't make it so. Called himself Ryoga's maid, doesn't make it so. He also said he kissed Akane. He said that you can see Akane's panties. Ranma often tells untruths to Ryoga while manipulating him, how do you know that wasn't just him manipulating Ryoga.

Nec said...

Nah I beleive ya. You have to be really petty to lie just to win an argument.

All I know is that Ranma said Ryoga is his one true rival.

That Ryoga is the only one beating Ranma off scene.

And that Ryoga was shown to be better than Mousse, which makes em the best of the three.

Otherwise what can I say? I dont have the book so Im kinda stuck.

Eh dosnt matter Im sure neither of us wants to argue forever.

Nec said...

Ughh were posting at the same time.

You had to add the post didnt ya?

How do I know? Because in all those cases it was made clear it was a lie and manipulation.

Cause if the authour intends it they give signs, and in Ranma's case its always made clear.

antimatterenergy said...

Your right I don't want to argue forever. It also kind of pointless. Your convinced that Ryoga is Ranma's primary rival and whatever I say is not likely to change that but I probably did change your views some.

Ryoga is most probably better overall than the other characters in Ranma's age class. They have very different fighting styles. Mousse for example gave female Ranma (first battle) more trouble than Ryoga did (battle in which Akane's hair was cut). Ranma had to spend more time dodging Mousse since his attacks are with weapons of the piercing variety whereas most of Ryoga's attacks are of blunt force. Each get temporary power ups enabling them to beat Ranma: Kuno with his watermelon cutting technique or phoenix sword. Ryoga mark of the gods and ki blasts. Mousse with the glasses of invincibility. Akane even gets two (dogi and super soba).

It would be interesting to see how a fight between Mousse and Ryoga went. Without the use of ki blasts of course since Mousse doesn't have one. Is Ryoga tough enough to take getting cut by a sword, knives, and claws that Mousse uses or fast enough to dodge block them. Is Mousse fast enough/skilled enough to block/dodge Ryoga's attacks. Both are very offensive fighters using very different styles.

I've gone off tangent. Well we do not agree on the rival thing for instance. It was an interesting debate.

Nec said...

One last thing, Ryoga and Mousse fought in the relay race. Ryoga smoked em.

antimatterenergy said...

I know. I didn't say they didn't fight. I said it would be interesting to see. We don't really get to see much of that battle and Mousse loses sight of Ryoga and attacks Ranma during it. Mousse had much better showings than that and I could easily see it go the other way depending on the point in the manga. Beginning Ryoga versus beginning Mousse for example. I'd like to see a challenge match were both are at their best. I believe Ryoga would win but it would be an interesting fight.

Anonymous said...

the toughness comparison thing is flawed according to battering ram theroy.
there is a entire martial art style where the whole goal is to lightly tap your opopnate in the same place as many times as possible. the result is that less fighting space is needed for each punch and bones are guranteed to break regarless of how immortal the opponate is.
as an engineer we are constantly reminded that the effect is present even if not visible.
tap the right beam enough times and the whole building falls.
of course we are told to deal with stuff bigger than taps but you get the picture.

antimatterenergy said...

I do understand and realize that repeated hits will eventually break just about anything. Even in a later post on Kachü Tenshin Amaguriken I explain that is what that technique does.

There are more factors that can be taken into account but that comparison is the best I've seen, which is why I quoted it. If you can think of a better one let me know.

EternallyLostRyouga said...

'Skill - Ranma appears to be a lot more skilled than Ryoga. '

Well, obviously. Ranma is the star of the show, after all. However, it is also a granted, since Ranma spent his entire life being trained by a master, while Ryouga is all self taught. And even then, Ryouga is still in the same league. And this is just at the start of the manga. Even in the
manga, later on, Ryouga gets closer and closer to Ranma in skill, able to give him continually better fights as they progress, until they just don't
fight at all anymore.

EternallyLostRyouga said...

'Toughness - Ryoga is tougher than Ranma but not by an overly large degree.'

Also pretty obvious. Ryouga's lifestyle requires him to be tougher, and he's done more training in that area. He's tough enough that it takes a hundred hits from Ranma to hurt him, and can take a hit from Tarou's
monster form better than Ranma as well. It's not like anyone is painting him as invincible anyway.

'Endurance - Ranma has shown to have more endurance (ability to keep going even though exhausted or hurt) than just about anyone in the manga'

Not really true. The fact is, we've only ever really followed Ranma, so we only see his ability to overcome adversity. As you say later about strength, we definitely haven't seen the extent of anyone else's endurance,
yet you assume that Ranma's is the highest, just because we've seen more endurance feats from him. This one is not at all provable.

'Stamina - unable to determine though both have massive stamina. '

Pretty much the same as above.

EternallyLostRyouga said...

Intelligence - Ranma appears to be smarter than Ryoga and a lot less
gullible. Ranma uses Ryoga's gullibility against him repeatedly.

Gullibility and intelligence are not the same thing. Ranma has a lot more normal social interaction in his life than Ryouga, so the most you can say is that he's more socially capable than Ryouga. Both of them go back and forth between idiot and savant, depending on the story, and are called on it by other people repeatedly. We never actually see any school results from either of them, so there is no way to prove it either way as well.

'Speed - Ranma is much faster than Ryoga.'

Obviously. Good genetics there.

EternallyLostRyouga said...

'Strength - Most people would expect me to say Ryoga and I will, Ryoga is stronger than female form Ranma. As for Ranma's male form it's unclear Ryoga could be stronger but it's also possible that Ranma is as strong or stronger.

We've never seen the full extent of either Ranma's or Ryoga's strength. Both are incredibly strong. Here are the arguments that I've heard people use to argue that Ryoga is stronger and my counters to them:'

This is the worst argument you can possibly make. Saying 'we haven't seen the full extent of their power' is something you can apply to anything. We have seen Ryouga perform feats of strength greater than anything Ranma has done, but if you ignore it, it opens up everything for debate. After all, if we've never seen their full strength, then it's possible that Ryouga is faster than Ranma, cuz we haven't seen his full speed. Or smarter than Ranma, and just hiding it all this time.

As soon as you avoid the actual feats on 'it's possible that' arguments, you throw everything into doubt.

'Argument: Ryoga is stronger because he is able to wield an extremely heavy umbrella that Akane had trouble lifting.'

This is another meaningless example. Both Ranma and Ryouga can lift tons easily. Akane is like an infant to them. Even if Ryouga was ten times stronger than Ranma, but Ranma ten times stronger than Akane, her having trouble lifting it gives zero indication of them being the same strength. The umbrella is only a few hundred pounds tops, which means it might as well be a feather to Ranma or Ryouga, so Ranma being able to use it doesn't mean anything, even if he's only half as strong as Ryouga.

'When Ryoga lifted the ice burgs, he did so while standing on Ranma's head. '

This just proves Ranma has super human boyancy, as she wasn't doing anything at all to keep herself afloat. She wasn't standing on the bottom of the pool either. This isn't a strength feat for Ranma at all, at best it's a speed feet for flapping his arms really fast to stay afloat. This is really just something of a goof on Takahashi's part, but a forgivable one, since it a good dramatic/comedic moment.

'Ranma's weaker female side was capable of lifting a multi-ton boulder many times larger than her into the Orachi's mouth. Ranma did manage to pick up most of a giant Buddha Statue and stuff it in a bag (umisenken arc).'

The first example is a bit false, as she didn't lift anything, she pushed a large boulder down, underwater, into the Orochi's mouth. And even then, the boulder was far far smaller (I've seen it calced at 70 tonnes, while the burgs are low balled at 400 tonnes for Ryouga. And even then, you are definitely over estimating the strength difference between male and female halves. It's not like Ranma loses 90% of his strength, or even 50% when he changes, or else, as your own calculations from above state, she'd never be able to hurt Ryouga at all, and yet we see it is possible in the Koi Rod fight (one which Ryouga did pretty darn well in, considering Ranma was bloodlusted and Ryouga was holding back, and even pulled out the rarest of victories there)

EternallyLostRyouga said...

I also like to add in the additional category of ki generation. Ryouga has proven, consistently since they got ki attacks, that he can generate much more raw power than Ranma. Ranma has no ki attacks that come close to Ryouga's PSSH, and all of his biggest attacks draw most of their power from their opponents. Ranma might be better at using his power (innate skill and more masters willing to teach him), but no where is it evident that he can generate as much power.

Anonymous said...

Ryouga didn't knock her out because the attack was powerful but because he attack her seal while she's in blind rage.
Bloodlust would help Ryouga.Ranma doesn't benefit from such a form since his style is not based on such aggression.
If you actually read the manga Ranma does know slashing attacks and he didn't use any againt Ryoga.Surely trying to kill him right?

Furthermore the male version decimated Ryouga effortlessly.You ignore it to show Ryouga as superior by only using the female form.

Two,you ignore how Ranma doesn't use an new techniques he gain from his countless battles with heirs against Ryouga what so ever.Nor do you notice how Ranma never took Ryoga seriously in any of his encounters.
Notice when he learn the ki blast and notice Ranma when dealing with instant kill attack from Ryoga.

His tactic against Ryouga ki blast?Ram at it. Surely a great martial artist.
That the same way I fight against my kid sister.Using a basic technique and if she overcomes it looking in shock.

Three,Ranma female didn't hurt Ryouga?
Ryoga in your reference fight was hurt by a single hit from female Ranma.So I got no idea why you're stating this.

I recall the wikia who reference it was using the incident in which Ranma got smacked by a finger from Ryouga while in female form.
I recall stating that it was a suprise attack and it was from someone who can control their strength.
1.You're using Ryouga offensive against a female Ranma defensive power while the later doesn't saw it coming.

The manga has shown a weaker opponent can instantly defeat Ranma if you do a surprise attack on him.
2.A female having almost the same ki is your own delusion.
Female are average exhibit 52% of an average male.Furthermore the manga shown that Male have far more ki than female when Herb attacks went from being invisible to being blindingly self-evident.
Back in reality.
Not to mention a female and male of the same weight and equally very fit would show that female pain tolerance are worse than man.It save to say 50% is a high standard.

When the manga has not shown a single female being more 'powerful' other than colonge.

Ignoring how Male Ranma is his default form that he trained with.
Ignoring female Ranma getting owned by Moouse?
Ignoring the scene in which they grabble and it seem like they're equal in strength while both in male form?

This is the stupidest explanation
I've ever seen. So someone carrying a 700 ton rock while you're desperately to try keep afloat on you and you put that as a speed feat alone and comedy?
You're making Ryoga fans look retarded.

Good genetics?.....Yeah and Ryoga just randomly got a stamina+durability that allows him to keep up with Ranma.(traveling the world and getting lost doesn't count)

Ryouga learn techniques like after seeing it once in a short time like Ranma right?Ranma constantly thinks about how strong Ryoga is and training diligently to improve right?

Genma master martial artist?............Good teacher huh?
Do you know how long some people debated that Ranma would've been better off without Genma

Most impiortantly , the ability to learn things on the fly wasn't exhibit by Akane nor Genma nor even Happosai nor Ryoga.

Only Ranma has shown that ability.

Ryouga super ki attack?
Ryoga>Ranma power?
You're tiptoeing over how the normal version were equal.
Ranma super version was never shown.
Ignoring how the attack is purely based on emotion and not ki strength.
Since Ranma never mastered to the level Ryoga did.It's illegal to use it as evidence for Ryoga superiority to Ranma in strength as a whole.

If you think Ranma on average is a savant like Ryoga using the manga alone.You're really something.

Anonymous said...

So is this post above me for or against ryoga? The scathing way he speak's and demeans both characters (and horrendous grammar) leads me to great confusion over wherther he is for or against either one.